Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

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Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:34 am

I do not get it really. I must be dense or stupid but yesterday I got a call from a place I do a little climbing at and the Following question was asked. Mr. X is having trouble with the online TP if he has a parent with each scout he says he does not need a TP Does He? I said yes he still needed one. to get off his but and fax it to his service center. This council is local to western Pa and they are one that checks training and will turn down a TP if the training is not up to date. They also require some other training like Risk Management. I told the Mgr. That the TP is also for our protection and in my opinion there is a reason it keeps getting kicked out of the system. Even a large Metro council will get you a TP back within a day if you play nice with the person doing them. When I hear the stories "It takes a month to get one" I call and ask and they usually laugh and say 40 minutes if everything is correct. Leaders just do not want to follow the rules. They do not want the Council knowing what they are doing but in reality they usually are not permitted to do or go anywhere due to not being trained.
What are your thoughts on this? Should these leaders be Gone?
I have no problem calling any council and telling them what is up with their units.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FrankJ » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:31 am

The online tour permit system still needs the bugs worked out. But if you are patient & work through its bugs it will eventually work. I can see it being a bigger problem with cub scouts packs that have a high number of drivers since you will have to page throuh a number of screens to find them all.

BTW I live in a large metro council. It has never taken more than a couple of days to get a tour permit approved.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:37 am

FrankJ wrote:The online tour permit system still needs the bugs worked out. But if you are patient & work through its bugs it will eventually work. I can see it being a bigger problem with cub scouts packs that have a high number of drivers since you will have to page throuh a number of screens to find them all.

BTW I live in a large metro council. It has never taken more than a couple of days to get a tour permit approved.


Leaders are just looking for an excuse not to file one. I forgot to mention they are Camping for the weekend also.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby cballman » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:05 am

Why would anyone try to get around a TP? I make sure that when I am in charge of an outing I have one because if something happens I want to be covered. I dont need any more help to look bad so we file TP.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby kwildman » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:45 am

there is no place for leaders that dont want to follow the rules. The online tour permit process is the best thing since sliced bread after you do your initial setup and enter in all your vehilce info, leaders, training, etc. I usually get mine back from council within 4 hours. The "its a family event" or "we all just happened to show up here in our uniforms" doesnt fly. These people are putting their kids, their troop, themselves, and the BSA at risk. If someone gets hurt or dies and it comes down to the leaders not being trained and not doing the paperwork isnt going to prevent the BSA from looking bad.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby evmori » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:56 am

I agree there is no reason to not follow the rules & fill out the TP but ya gotta remember, only within the last 5 years were the tour permit rules actually enforced in some councils! Not a reason, more of an excuse but still a fact.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:02 pm

Still don't make it Right. Ed your council is one of the worst. They will go to any means possible to justify not needing a TP
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby evmori » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:05 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Still don't make it Right. Ed your council is one of the worst. They will go to any means possible to justify not needing a TP


Don't I know it! My council is what I was referring to!
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:20 pm

I love it when some of those leaders show up and start things Like I am here to inspect your climbing program, I need everyone to fill out a MB counselor application or these MB will not count, WE don't need a TP if each boy has a parent with them even if we ARE Camping. All did happen. I play along for like 30 seconds then start on them.
I am a Climbing Director Show me Your Qualifications or OK Let me Call Kevin and Varify your story. Too bad he's gone. I threw his name around a god bit

Why do we need to be registered in Two Councils? ALso again see #1 I am The Person that approves the Climbing Instructors for the Council

OK SHow me in the G2SS where it says you do not need at TP. Or Mollie said you needed one when I called.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby evmori » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:59 pm

Kevin was a good man! He got on everyone about not filing a TP!
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:05 pm

ALl it will take is one leader get booted and spread the word. It is time that each council make and example out of someone.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby ThunderingWind » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:09 pm

For the boys safety in the future, I hope you turned this unit leader in to the Risk Management Police.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:12 pm

Part of the problem is that the requirements are unclear. For instance, I'm taking several Scouts on a city hike tomorrow. They're from different troops and different councils. We're using no private transportation, as the event begins at the hike start. Called and one council said it's not needed (not a troop event and not using personal vehicles); the other would not give me a straight answer but said that they don't comment on specific trips (!) and to use the published guidelines.

Yet I have called at other times for similar things and been given answers more stringent and less stringent.

There are OBVIOUS times when it's needed - when it's out of area, when it's overnight, when water is involved. But until Councils are willing to set clear parameters, I can understand why many don't file them.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:17 pm

The simple thing is to file one anytime you are away from your regular meeting place.
These scouts are coming 75 miles from their town to camp for two nights and take climbing MB plus probably something else. THEY NEED A TOUR PERMIT!
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:42 pm

Wagion, absolutely in that case. That should be a no-brainer.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby kwildman » Fri May 01, 2009 8:28 am

problem is you are dealing w/ "no-brainers".
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby LSR » Fri May 01, 2009 10:56 pm

Got to wonder what the heck people are thinking! It's like not having homeowners' insurance because you can't be bothered, never had to do it before and nobody else you know has ever had a problem.

As for parents taking their kids..... Choice A is the Church van ($1 Mil liability policy) with choice B being going with YOUR parent if there's an overflow (as much for the adult leader's protection as the troop's/mine.) Most of the time, it's an adult leader with a pickup and everybody's packs. My troop also has alot of Merit Badge Counselors (It's free and that way there's a background check.) We always have a tour permit, 'cause SM LSR is a firm believer in Murphy's Law.
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby smtroop168 » Sun May 03, 2009 5:11 pm

Unfortunately people seem to be always looking for the shortcuts to the rules. If they "Get away with it" and nothing bad happens, they do it again. Someday when something goes bad, it is only then when they learn (of course this will be after they have tried to place the blame on everyone else).
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby fritz1255 » Wed May 20, 2009 7:52 am

We fill out a Tour Permit for every outing. It only takes a few minutes and saves us from the situation where a camp "ranger" or director denies us permission to camp after we have just driven 100 miles or so on a Friday night because we don't have it. That said, I still don't understand the rationale behind it. I have NEVER seen any really good reasons for Tour Permits other than "because you have to".
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Re: Leaders trying to get around Tour Permits

Postby FieldSports » Wed May 20, 2009 1:08 pm

Reasons:
No qualified and trained people for: Climbing;Swimming;Shooting Sports,etc.
Going on trip that violates GTSS: Paintball;ATC's;etc.
Trips without trained YP Leader
International trips
Go on hikes without a single person trained in backpacking
Going to a political event in uniform
A way for council and advancement chair to see if unit is active
Use of non-insured vehicles
Use of non-licensed drivers

Just a few of the real important reasons for TP
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