Definition of long term camp

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Definition of long term camp

Postby roger » Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:22 pm

Requirement 9a says only one long term camp can be used, but what is that, exactly? More specifically, if a scout has done a 50 mile hike (6 days) and a summer camp, can both be used? I can understand the limit of one summer camp, because often that camp experience is really more like going to a "vacation" -- ie tents/cabins set up, programs in place, and relatively little planning on scouts part. On the other hand, if the scout is hiking for a month, or does a 4-5 day campout that they plan and bring the equipment for, should that qualify as well?

THoughts?

Thanks!
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Postby West » Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:10 pm

I think that was put into place as a way to make sure the scout is attending a lot of diffrent events, trying out many things- rather then just going to camp a couple weeks a year and being done with it. Or only a couple of the longer camps. It's a way to make sure things get mixed up a bit.
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Postby Rick Tyler » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:12 pm

This is a constant question about the Camping MB, and, to a lesser extent, qualification for the Order of the Arrow. The most common interpretation is that "long-term camp" means summer camp, or something like it -- a stationary camp in a place with planned Scouting activities. As a Camping MB counselor, I would not classify a 6-night backpack trip as a "long-term camp."

Until National clarifies this point (I've been waiting almost five years), I'm sticking with my definition. Any different ideas?
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Postby wagionvigil » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:12 pm

A long term camp is Sunday afternoon through SAturday morning at a Council Scout Camp Or some other long term scout camp that would be like a council camp.
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Postby BM_Crawford » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:13 pm

wagionvigil wrote:A long term camp is Sunday afternoon through SAturday morning at a Council Scout Camp Or some other long term scout camp that would be like a council camp.


Yea that's what we've always done.
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Postby evmori » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:00 am

A week at summer camp (Sunday through Saturday) fit's the bill!
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:07 am

A week-long camping for a JLT/Pathfinder course should count too. I've usually seen these taught at the same place a Council holds summer camp. While JLT and summer camp are usually run Sun-Sat, they wouldn't necessarily have to be run Sun-Sat.
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:13 am

the Idea of a long term camp is to provide advancement opportunity JLT does not!
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:11 pm

Where does it says in the OA manual that advancement is the focus of a long term camp or has to be summer camp, vice leadership?!
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:44 pm

The Question was " What is a long term camp" I answered it. That is the definition and that is what the OA wants for a scout to spend a week at summer camp.
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:04 pm

It's not in the election rules that it has to be summer camp, so you can't prove it.
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:07 pm

Long term camp is what is required and the definition of a long term camp was provided No other proof is necessary. Case closed. If you doubt me call your region office and ask. In NE that would be in NJ and you ask Doug Fullman
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Postby ASM-142 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:12 pm

wagionvigil wrote:the Idea of a long term camp is to provide advancement opportunity JLT does not!

If the requirement stated "long term camping to provide advancement opportunities" then this may be correct. JLT also offers advancement opportunities. This may not be in the form of MBs but it is in the way of leadership which is crucial to rank advancement and positions in the troop
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:21 pm

ASM-142 wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:the Idea of a long term camp is to provide advancement opportunity JLT does not!

If the requirement stated "long term camping to provide advancement opportunities" then this may be correct. JLT also offers advancement opportunities. This may not be in the form of MBs but it is in the way of leadership which is crucial to rank advancement and positions in the troop


Well-stated, ASM-142.

I only have to worry about our Lodge, and they allow any long-term camp. I have no need to contact another Lodge.
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Postby RWSmith » Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:44 pm

Uh, pardon me fellas, but... Isn't this thread supposed to about the Camping MB, rather than OA candidate eligibility? Apples and oranges.

But, since we're all having such a good time, as far as the Camping MB is concerned, I'm going to try this, for an opinion:

    CAMPING MB (Eagle Required): Requirement 9a. "Camp a total of at least 20 days and nights. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded)."

    Let's break it down into segments:

      Root requirement: "Camp a total of at least 20 days and nights." Note: It doesn't specify or restrict who, what, when, where or why.

      Stipulation 1: "You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement." Note: You do not have to include "a week of long-term camp," which could be best defined as 7-days/6-nights camping in tents (or similarly primative shelters, such as cabins, lean-to shelters, etc.) w/o electricity or running water therein. Meals may be prepared and served by others, such as traditional dining halls, as this is not specified one way or the other. Obviously, stays in military barracks, college dormatories, etc., would not qualify. Conoeing, backpacking, High Adventure Treks, Jamborees, whatever, could apply (as this, too, is not specified one way or the other), as long as the "camping" portion of the trip meets the criteria for "a week."

      Stipulation 2: "Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded)." Pretty much self-explanatory.

      A final note on this... In Scouting terms, "summer camp" is a more restrictive sub-definition of "long-term camp," which leads me to believe, if the requirement meant "summer camp," it would have read as such. Again, it's just my opinion... Even though it may be contrary (I think?) to Bro. Wagionvigil's earlier post.

Now, as far as the Order of the Arrow is concerned, here are the official policy statements from the OA national committee, and I quote:

    Q/A: Camping Requirement Interpretation

    Q: Who decides what camping activities qualify for the camping requirement needed for election to the Order of the Arrow?

    A: With the camping requirement, as with all other eligibility requirements, it is the Unit Leader's job to interpret whether a Scout has met the requirement.

    As stated in the Guide for Officers and Advisers (#34997A, 1999 revision, page 20):

    "Unit Leader Approval. To become eligible for election, a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader prior to the election. The unit leader must certify his Scout spirit (i.e. his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The unit leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election."

    Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader.

    * A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that.

    Revised 5/14/02

    Q/A: Resident Camping Requirement

    Q: I have a question about Unit Elections. For the camping requirement of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping does the camping have to be at a Boy Scout owned and operated camp, or can it be a troop long term campout allowed by the council?

    A: The exact wording of the camping requirement can be found in the current printing of the Guide for Officers and Advisers (#34997A, revised 1999). This book sets forth the official policy of the Order of the Arrow on this topic. The pertinent passage, on page 20, says:

      "... long-term camp consisting of six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America."

    It does not say that the resident camp must be at a Boy Scout owned or operated facility. If the national Order of the Arrow committee had wanted to say that, they would have. The language used was very carefully composed. If a troop runs their own long-term resident camp, "under the auspices and standards" of the BSA, it qualifies. The BSA does have very explicit standards for a resident Boy Scout camp, requiring much more than just a week long campout. Your local council camping people can provide more information on what the current standards are.

    Some of the confusion may be caused by an error in the current Boy Scout Handbook, which stated the camping had to be at "a local or national council facility", but that is incorrect.

    Revised 4/2/01
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:57 pm

Well-documented!
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Postby RWSmith » Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:06 pm

Cut-n-paste, Bro'dah! Cut-n-paste.
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:52 pm

Camps that are approved as long term camps for BSA must go through the National Standards inspections. The COPE inspection alone take all day and has two huge books of regulations that must be met.
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Postby Scouting179 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:23 pm

wagionvigil wrote:Camps that are approved as long term camps for BSA must go through the National Standards inspections. The COPE inspection alone take all day and has two huge books of regulations that must be met.


I don't think this is germane to the issue. What constitutes a long-term camp for OA purposes and BSA summer camp purposes are not necessarily the same thing, and I doubt there's anything in writing that says they are.

And as RWSmith so clearly pointed out, the determination of OA eligibility is left up to the SM.
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Postby RWSmith » Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:55 pm

Scouting179 wrote:....as RWSmith so clearly pointed out, the determination of OA eligibility is left up to the SM.


Monkey wrench time... Ah, that's for OA candidate eligibility.

As far as what is, and is not, acceptable for Camping MB Req. 9a., that's strictly up to the MBC, and not the SM.

There is, of course, one exception... anyone care to hazard a guess?

First one to guess it gets a cookie!
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