"Permenant" Camp Sites

Camping, Citizenship in the Community, Citizenship in the Nation, Citizenship in the World, Communications, Cycling, Emergency Preparedness, Environmental Science, Family Life, First Aid, Hiking, Lifesaving, Personal Fitness, Personal Management, and Swimming.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

"Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby ThunderingWind » Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:22 pm

Copied/Edited from the Camping Merit Badge Nights thread....
Cowboy wrote:......Sad to say, few of our boys are allowed to count any of the Summer Camp stay toward this MB. Most of the sites at our camp have permenant "bunks". Not much more than a steel roof, wood floor, and screen walls, but NOT a tent. Makes me wonder how many Scouts get this MB without actually meeting the 20 day/night requirement.......

As an MBC for the Camping Merit Badge, if I was presented a Scout that had your camp listed and he was asking to have his summer camp week there counted, I would count it.

While it is part of the program that Troops should be out every month camping, not all units are so inclined. Not all units are lucky enough, equiped etc.....to go camping every month or much at all.

My personal view of camps that provide these "Hooches" for summer is that they had money to do so and felt these were a better option for their camp over traditional BSA wall tents. I would not hold this business choice againt a Scout and I would count his week.

These Hooches are not his normal sleeping quarters and as long as he is sleeping in tents or under the stars for the rest fo the 20 nights, a Hooch seems an appropriate substitute.

Just my two cents on the issue. It's not set in stone. If anyone can produce a BSA policy letter that clarifies the status of these Hooches, I will gladly accept that as the "law of the land."
No Longer a Registered Scouter
ThunderingWind
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:16 am
Location: longer affiliated with the BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby Cowboy » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:01 am

Not being the Camping MBC, I do not get to make that decision. I do understand the fiscal issues. Especially when we have Troops from 500 miles away coming to our camp regularly. Tenting gear would usually require an additional vehicle = lots of gas, extra driver, etc. On the other hand, I am speaking strictly to our Troop: We do provide enough opportunity to sleep in a tent that our boys can get the 20 days and nights within 2 years without using Summer Camp. Even if they miss a couple of outings. We also make use of a bunkhouse during winter outings. The boys have the option of sleeping outside or in the bunk house. Most of them take outside when given the option. If our MBC is not keeping an eye on things and just counts overnight outings a boy can get all 20 in without ever pitching a tent. Fortunately our two MBC's are old school and stick pretty strong to the letter of requirements.
Cowboy
Eagle
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:56 am
Location: none

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby kwildman » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:24 am

Not necessarily related but worth considering... the national camping awards count sleeping in primitive cabin (no amenities or electric) as a qualifying night of camping. If your "hooches" met this criteria i would be inclined to count it as well since it met the standard for the national award.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 8:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby ThunderingWind » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:36 am

kwildman wrote:Not necessarily related but worth considering... the national camping awards count sleeping in primitive cabin (no amenities or electric) as a qualifying night of camping. If your "hooches" met this criteria i would be inclined to count it as well since it met the standard for the national award.
This is a good bit of information to know. While not an official policy letter regarding "hooches" and the Camping Merti Badge, it helps define the overall camping experience within the BSA.
No Longer a Registered Scouter
ThunderingWind
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:16 am
Location: longer affiliated with the BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:43 am

I have heard the following stetement many times from Friends at National" AS long as it meets the "spirit" of the Requirement.
Image
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear you're a Meal
wagionvigil
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby kwildman » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:02 am

wagionvigil wrote:I have heard the following stetement many times from Friends at National" AS long as it meets the "spirit" of the Requirement.


that is legalese for "we dont know and you need to figure it out". Unfortunately, these types of answers are what perpetuate all of the different interpretations of merit badge requirements and get us here in the first place. :lol:
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 8:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:14 am

Yep! :lol:
Image
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear you're a Meal
wagionvigil
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby AquilaNegra2 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:38 pm

"Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched." It seems that the two options are under the sky (not under a hooch), or in a tent the Scout has pitched.

Since there is a section on tents, it's obviously an important part of the badge. IMHO, counting nights where they do not meet the requirement as stated is weakening the badge. What if the raft trip in 9b4 was only 3 hours/3miles long because the 4 hour trip was an extra $50? Would that then count? What if the Scout claims not to have had the chance to cook the required meals in 8d, but cooks three breakfasts? It's still three meals, right? Not.
AquilaNegra2
Eagle
 
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:51 pm
Location: Chief Seattle Council

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby ThunderingWind » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:02 pm

AquilaNegra2 wrote:"Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched." It seems that the two options are under the sky (not under a hooch), or in a tent the Scout has pitched.

Since there is a section on tents, it's obviously an important part of the badge. IMHO, counting nights where they do not meet the requirement as stated is weakening the badge. What if the raft trip in 9b4 was only 3 hours/3miles long because the 4 hour trip was an extra $50? Would that then count? What if the Scout claims not to have had the chance to cook the required meals in 8d, but cooks three breakfasts? It's still three meals, right? Not.


I will only address the "Tent" issue here as you left out a few words.

Are you saying that counting the nights at summer Camp should ONLY count if the Scout himself sets up the tent that the Camp provides? Many BSA Camps have a staff/setup week where the walls tents are put by the staff.

I will not penalize the Scouts because of this. Afterall, one week of Long Term Camping counts in the 20 nights.
You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or under a tent you have pitched. (long-term camp excluded).


Since the words in bold above are the one that give allowance for Summer Camp and a tent provided by said Summer Camp, I offer that the "Hooches" made by the Summer Camp would/should count as well.
No Longer a Registered Scouter
ThunderingWind
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:16 am
Location: longer affiliated with the BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby FrankJ » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:07 pm

I believe TW was speaking of the one week long term camp & not the remainding camping nights which should be in a tent. I think he has a reasonable read of the requirement.

BTW Northern Tiers calls the contraptions the home bound crews overnight in "Wooden Tents".
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby kwildman » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:49 pm

I too assumed that TW was only talking about the one week of long term camping and I don't think there is much difference between a canvas wall tent and a screened shelter. The ones i have seen have more bugs inside the screened area than outside. I would count it.

There isnt much sense in running through all the "what-ifs" for each merit-badge to justify an answer for a different requirement. In debating it would be considered a Non Sequitur argument. However, since the questions were asked....

Canoe trip depends upon the circumstances and whether it was the scouts decision or the adults and i would consider how frequently the troop has opportunities to fulfill this requirement. If the troop regularly does canoe trips i would likely be more stringent but if not I would let it count. I think this is a silly scenario as there probably aren't many places that offer a 3 mile trip and at least in OH/PA long trips are very reasonably priced by most outfitters.

Meals - nope wouldn't count anything less than the requirements. In 20 nights of camping (with 13 to 15 nights being outside of summer camp) there is plenty of opportunity for a scout to meet this requirement as written. Especially during the T21 requirements.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 8:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby alex gregory » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:51 am

When in doubt read the requirement:

"Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. The 20 days and 20 nights must be at a designated Scouting activity or event. You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent."

Sorry, but any night spent in an Adirondack shelter does not count. It's got to be a tent or under the stars.

I'm not sure why it is so hard for some folks to get 20 nights of camping. Don't most troops schedule a campout at least 9 months of the year plus summer camp, if not 12 months of the year? From cross-over to second summer of scouting it should be easy to get 20 to 30 overnights of camping.

For those scouts who for whatever reason are not getting their 20 nights during the rest of the year I suggest the troop bring a tarp and just have the guys sleep under the stars. It's summer and junior is not going to suffer irreperable harm from sleeping on the ground. Back in the day my entire troop would often ditch the tents and just sleep on the ground and watch the stars. I also have no objection to a scout getting credit for week of summer camp sleeping in a council tent and a week of summer camp sleeping under the stars.

Lastly, every troop should bring one or two tents to summer camp so that new scouts can satisfy Tenderfoot req. 2 and 2d Class req. 2b.
alex gregory
Eagle
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:32 am
Location: Cascade Pacific Council

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:57 am

Is the camp with the Hooches an accredited BSA Summer Camp? I have my doubts. I know some cub camps have hooches but they are not the issue. The requiremnt is pretty specific "Tent "
Image
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear you're a Meal
wagionvigil
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby scoutaholic » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:34 am

wagionvigil wrote:Is the camp with the Hooches an accredited BSA Summer Camp? I have my doubts. I know some cub camps have hooches but they are not the issue. The requiremnt is pretty specific "Tent "


Camp Steiner (the highest BSA camp at 10,400 feet elevation) has been accredited for 75+ years. They have only 7 tent camping sights, and the rest of the sights (13) have Adirondack cabins.

Our council also operates 3 other camps and 2 high-adventure bases. None of these have cabins.
Eagle Scout 1987
OA Vigil Honor 1986
Fox - WE7-590-05-2
Currently - Troop/Team/Crew Advancement Chair & Dist Webmaster
Previously - SM, MC, CM, ACM, ADL, ASM, COR, Dist Camp Chair, PL, SPL, Scribe, Songleader, JASM, OA Chapter Officer, ...
scoutaholic
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Great Salt Lake Council - Utah

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:38 am

scoutaholic wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:Is the camp with the Hooches an accredited BSA Summer Camp? I have my doubts. I know some cub camps have hooches but they are not the issue. The requiremnt is pretty specific "Tent "


Camp Steiner (the highest BSA camp at 10,400 feet elevation) has been accredited for 75+ years. They have only 7 tent camping sights, and the rest of the sights (13) have Adirondack cabins.

Our council also operates 3 other camps and 2 high-adventure bases. None of these have cabins.

If national approves this as meeting the camp requirements then the nights would count.
Image
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear you're a Meal
wagionvigil
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby FrankJ » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:17 pm

One of our council camps have sites with Adirondack shelters, but other sites (most) with canvas tents. The selection of camp sites for summer camp is not up to the troop. So I am going let one scout get credit for summer camp nights & another not purely for camp site selection that was not in his control? As others have said, the camping merit badge is much bigger than a week of long term camp. If the other requirements are well met, I am not going to fixate on this one.

The camp is an accredited boy scout camp.

Your MBC may differ.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby alex gregory » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:11 pm

wagionvigil wrote:
scoutaholic wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:Is the camp with the Hooches an accredited BSA Summer Camp? I have my doubts. I know some cub camps have hooches but they are not the issue. The requiremnt is pretty specific "Tent "


Camp Steiner (the highest BSA camp at 10,400 feet elevation) has been accredited for 75+ years. They have only 7 tent camping sights, and the rest of the sights (13) have Adirondack cabins.

Our council also operates 3 other camps and 2 high-adventure bases. None of these have cabins.

If national approves this as meeting the camp requirements then the nights would count.


The tent sites are obviously OK. How does sleeping in an Adirondack fit within the plan meaning of Camping Req. 9?

Mind you, I think sleeping in an Adirondack shelter should count as camping, but I don't think it does within the meaning of Req. 9.

Does sleeping in a scout operated bunkhouse count as camping? How about a boat (a la Sea Base)?

Give me some BSA authority, and I'll agree with you, but otherwise I think that sleeping under the sky or in a tent mean just that.
alex gregory
Eagle
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:32 am
Location: Cascade Pacific Council

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:30 pm

As long as it meets the "spirit" of the requirement :lol:
Now to be an accredited camp it must meet certain things and the tenting requirement is part of it. If a camp inspection is counting the hooches as a tent which apparent;y they are then it meets it. If only a certain part of camp ie: the tent sites meet the inspection requiremnt then they do not. Confusing right?I agree a tent is a tent but apparently BSA feels otherwise in some cases.
Image
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear you're a Meal
wagionvigil
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby FrankJ » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:44 pm

As long as it meets the "spirit" of the requirement


Actually I like this. If you write the requirement to cover every contingency then they will start looking like mil-specs. Anybody that deals with mil-specs know what head aches they are, and they still still not any clearer.

If a scout spends a night in a snow cave or igloo he made, I would probably count that as well. (not likely down here in GA.)

This still does not give the MBC license to rewrite the merit badge.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
FrankJ
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 12:25 am
Location: Atlanta Area Council Foothills District

Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby scoutaholic » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:52 pm

wagionvigil wrote:
scoutaholic wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:Is the camp with the Hooches an accredited BSA Summer Camp? I have my doubts. I know some cub camps have hooches but they are not the issue. The requiremnt is pretty specific "Tent "


Camp Steiner (the highest BSA camp at 10,400 feet elevation) has been accredited for 75+ years. They have only 7 tent camping sights, and the rest of the sights (13) have Adirondack cabins.

Our council also operates 3 other camps and 2 high-adventure bases. None of these have cabins.

If national approves this as meeting the camp requirements then the nights would count.


I was mistaken on one detail. Apparently one of the High-Adventure bases has Bunkhouses.

WV,
Just because the camp is accredited, does that mean that national certifies that any event held at the facility qualifies as camping for the Camping MB? I would think that accredidation has little (or nothing) to do with the MB requirements. Is the National BSA Advancement committee involved in any part of the accredidation? Are you also saying that events at non-accredited facilities are not camping?
Eagle Scout 1987
OA Vigil Honor 1986
Fox - WE7-590-05-2
Currently - Troop/Team/Crew Advancement Chair & Dist Webmaster
Previously - SM, MC, CM, ACM, ADL, ASM, COR, Dist Camp Chair, PL, SPL, Scribe, Songleader, JASM, OA Chapter Officer, ...
scoutaholic
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Great Salt Lake Council - Utah

Next

Return to Merit Badges -- Eagle Required

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest