"Permenant" Camp Sites

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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:14 pm

If you never done a camp inspection you may not understand. Square ft of space,tent pegs etc.I will leave it at that. I have never inspected a camp that has hooches houses yes but not hooches. The houses are not used by campers
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby alex gregory » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:25 pm

wagionvigil wrote:As long as it meets the "spirit" of the requirement :lol:
Now to be an accredited camp it must meet certain things and the tenting requirement is part of it. If a camp inspection is counting the hooches as a tent which apparent;y they are then it meets it. If only a certain part of camp ie: the tent sites meet the inspection requiremnt then they do not. Confusing right?I agree a tent is a tent but apparently BSA feels otherwise in some cases.


Well I'm still going to be a curmudgeon and just go with the plain meaning of the requirement; tent=tent and sleep under the sky=sleep under the sky. If BSA wants to fix this all they have to so is say something like "you can apply up to six nights of summer camp in any council provided shelter."

I suppose I might be swayed if a scout is 17 years 364 days old, and just needs me to sign off on his Camping MB for Eagle. Otherwise, just go on another camp out kiddo.
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:30 pm

You as a MBC have every right in the world to do that. The same as I do not give partials in climbing. I also do not believe a scout under the age of 13 should even be allowed to take climbing. :twisted:
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby ThunderingWind » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:24 pm

alex gregory wrote:Well I'm still going to be a curmudgeon and just go with the plain meaning of the requirement; tent=tent and sleep under the sky=sleep under the sky. If BSA wants to fix this all they have to so is say something like "you can apply up to six nights of summer camp in any council provided shelter."


How do you apply the bold words below in the Camping Merit Badge?

You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or under a tent you have pitched. (long-term camp excluded).


While it may not be the exact words you have requested (underlined in your quote), I truely believe this language allows the Scout credit for one week of Summer Camp to be counted in his 20 nights total.

I will leave the definition of "one week" for another discussion as it has already been proven that some Councils offer different Summer Camp experiences. And this thread is only discussion the 20 nights, tents, sky and "Hooches."
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:49 pm

I just recieved a package from a scouter in the UK. Included is a scout badge Book similar to our merit badge requirement book. In the Camper Badge it solves the problem by stating Camp under Canvas (any tentage) for 15 nights. Solves that problem MAYbe everyone should suggest to national that we put those words in our camping MB.That would leave nothing to intrepretation :D
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby kwildman » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:26 pm

we dont own any canvas tents. :lol:
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby scoutaholic » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:02 pm

wagionvigil wrote:I just recieved a package from a scouter in the UK. Included is a scout badge Book similar to our merit badge requirement book. In the Camper Badge it solves the problem by stating Camp under Canvas (any tentage) for 15 nights. Solves that problem MAYbe everyone should suggest to national that we put those words in our camping MB.That would leave nothing to intrepretation :D


No matter how the requirement is worded, someone will find a way to satisfy the wording but not the spirit of the requirement. I know boys who 'earned' camping MB by sleeping in a tent they pitched in a hotel room while on a family vacation. 'They slept in a tent, that is camping.'

I tried the 'sleep under canvas or stars' wording with a few boys and they asked, 'how about the popup trailer, it has canvas walls and the ceiling above the beds is canvas.' or 'I slept in the boat with no roof.'

The issue in this thread seems to be more about satisfying the MBC, not the wording or spirit of the requirement.
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:28 pm

scoutaholic wrote:No matter how the requirement is worded, someone will find a way to satisfy the wording but not the spirit of the requirement. I know boys who 'earned' camping MB by sleeping in a tent they pitched in a hotel room while on a family vacation. 'They slept in a tent, that is camping.'


What moronic MBC signed that off. The requirement says "The 20 days and 20 nights must be at a designated Scouting activity or event."
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby alex gregory » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:36 pm

scoutaholic wrote:No matter how the requirement is worded, someone will find a way to satisfy the wording but not the spirit of the requirement.


I disagree. This is not the only MB with bad phrasing that creates confusion and competing interpretations. Exactly what is the "spirit" of a requirement? Apparently 2 reasonable people disagree, and that's why better drafting is so critical.

How about this:
Spend 20 nights camping. You can credit up to 6 nights of summer camp, regardless of where you sleep or how well you sleep. Every other night has to be in a tent or under the stars (again, actual sleep is not required, just that you try to sleep - counting sheep all night and wishing you were home in bed is OK - heck, we've all been there - chances are it's cold and wet, and your unit leaders right about now wish they were home in bed too).
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby scoutaholic » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:39 pm

smtroop168 wrote:
scoutaholic wrote:No matter how the requirement is worded, someone will find a way to satisfy the wording but not the spirit of the requirement. I know boys who 'earned' camping MB by sleeping in a tent they pitched in a hotel room while on a family vacation. 'They slept in a tent, that is camping.'


What moronic MBC signed that off. The requirement says "The 20 days and 20 nights must be at a designated Scouting activity or event."


In this case, the moronic MBC was the boys father. He was also the SM and DAC at the time. You can probably guess what kind of Eagle scouts his boys were.
At the time, the 'must be at a designated Scouting activity or event' wording was not in the requirements.
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:58 am

Like everything else in todays world everything has been written to make it easier, open to intrepretation. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I would say that if you compare requirements for the outdoor MB's now to 40 years ago you would see many examples of this. The Swimmer test is a good example. Elementary back stroke was replaced with a resting back stroke which can be laying on your back and just fluttering your hands. What is in good Form? That again is open to interpretation by whom ever is testing. We operate a 5 week instructional swim right now and you would not believe the parents that feel the swimmer test is too difficult for Johnny. This goes right over into Camping as you can see. I will say BSA has tried to tighten the Camping Night Requirement by saying approved scout activity. Maybe camping shuld be one of "My older scout" MB that way there would be no doubt about having then days by age 14 they should have them without a week of camp.
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:44 am

scoutaholic wrote:In this case, the moronic MBC was the boys father. He was also the SM and DAC at the time. You can probably guess what kind of Eagle scouts his boys were.


Why am I not surprised? This makes the case for parents not to be allowed to be MBCs for their sons.
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby kwildman » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:25 am

waigon - i disagree about camping being an older scout MB. If they can meet the requirement they should be able to get the badge. My oldest got his completed before he was 13 and my youngest got his completed by age 12. Our troop averages 30 days/nights per year and we camp year round so there are plenty of opportunities to meet the requirements including the "extremes" for scouts that are active. Given that camping is an ER MB i would not want to hold any scouts back on this one.

I can understand the rationale for age on other MBs like climbing and muzzle loading rifles but these are elective and dont hold a scout back from advancing rank.

If we are changing requirements i would like to see them add a requirement that scouts must sleep at least 1 night under the stars with no tent, tarp, skeeter netting, etc.
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:36 am

kwildman wrote:waigon - i disagree about camping being an older scout MB. If they can meet the requirement they should be able to get the badge. My oldest got his completed before he was 13 and my youngest got his completed by age 12. Our troop averages 30 days/nights per year and we camp year round so there are plenty of opportunities to meet the requirements including the "extremes" for scouts that are active. Given that camping is an ER MB i would not want to hold any scouts back on this one.

I can understand the rationale for age on other MBs like climbing and muzzle loading rifles but these are elective and dont hold a scout back from advancing rank.

If we are changing requirements i would like to see them add a requirement that scouts must sleep at least 1 night under the stars with no tent, tarp, skeeter netting, etc.

I just threw that out so there would be plenty of time to get the 20 nights without the Summer camp days counting. My son also got his by age 13 without using summer camp. National just needs to say Must be under tentage or stars Period ,No intrepretation needed.
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby smtroop168 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:48 am

wagionvigil wrote:National just needs to say Must be under tentage or stars Period ,No intrepretation needed.


That's what it says now:

"Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched."
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Re: "Permenant" Camp Sites

Postby wagionvigil » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:58 am

smtroop168 wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:National just needs to say Must be under tentage or stars Period ,No intrepretation needed.


That's what it says now:

"Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched."

But the summer camp thing does open it to interpretation
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