Possible Eagle Required MB

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Postby wagionvigil » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:22 pm

I have found over many years of doing Aquatics(since 1967) that Troop leadership are too eager to waive the Swimming Requirements rather than saying we have until they are 18. SO a boy does not make it past Second Class .Oh forgot there is a Swimming Requirement for that also. Me Bad :twisted: ANyway There should not be a scout that cannot swim and swim well enough to pass the swimmers test. I have seen boys that have a "Fear" of the water but as soon as Mom and Dad are gone the fear lessens and eventually they will pass the test. It might take a couple of years But as they say "Rome was't built in a day." I like Charlie have seen the same thing happen over and over but a boy with the desire will eventually make it. ANd if they never pass the test they have been in scouts and have gotten alot out of the program Just Not Eagle.
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Postby Lynda J » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:12 am

If a boy spends 8 years in Scouts. Works hard learns a lot becomes a good leader but never makes Eagle. Does that make his Scouting experience any less fun for him. NOt every boy will make Eagle. So lets give them the best program we can and don't let them take the easy way out.

I agree with Wagion. Many times a boy will be a totally different person without mom and dad around. One of our new boys can't do anything as long as oneof his parents is there. He can't tie a square knot. But let them not stay and he can tie all the knots for Tenderfoot with great skill.
HIs mother was the den leader for him in Bears and Assistant in Webs. She did everything for him. He has a learning disability. But that doesn't mean he can't learn. He is a sharp kid it just takes a little longer for him to grasp some things. Very skilled with fire lighting and safety. Mom said he is scared of fire.
So lets expect these boys to give everything they have and lets be there to give them a little nudge when they need it. Everyone needs to feel that someone in following along behind them with a prod. And I honestly feel that every boy wants a leader that expects him to do nothing but the best he can do.
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Postby hops_scout » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:42 am

Lynda J wrote:If a boy spends 8 years in Scouts. Works hard learns a lot becomes a good leader but never makes Eagle. Does that make his Scouting experience any less fun for him.


Lynda, you're absolutely right. Eagle is not the end goal of Scouting.

I aged out at Life. Done by choice. I could have gotten Eagle, but it didn't mean anything to me. But I loved Scouting and still do love Scouting. Out of our four main active leaders, there is one Eagle Scout in the bunch. 3 Life Scouts.

Thru Scouts, I served on many day camp staffs, as Senior Patrol Leader, as Junior Assistant Scoutmaster for 2 years, and on 2005 National Jamboree youth staff on Rappel Tower D. I got to go on a few canoe trips, a backpacking trip, several week-long summer camps, and many weekend campouts.
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Postby Lynda J » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:01 am

As much as we would all love for every boy to make Eagle that isn't going top happen. And hops congrats for taking great joy from the EXPERIENCE of SCOUTING. Not the goal of making Eagle.
Not every boy is Eagle material just like not every boy can be the star quarterback. There has to be a water boy too. But that doesn't mean that the water boy doesn't get the same pleasure and learning experience from his position as the quarter back.
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Postby lane_eaglescout » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:02 pm

One that I nearly forgot-Computers. Especially in this day and age where nearly everything involves computers to some level of understanding. I think Computers may have a better case than many-if not all the MBs I mentioned in the original post.
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Postby maricopasem » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:00 pm

wagionvigil wrote:I am interested in knowing that also and if so WHo gave them the waiver? If it was at the local level it is illegal!

Illegal? Would that be a felony or a misdemeanor?
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Postby wagionvigil » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:13 pm

Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation
It fits RULES which is what would have been violated. If you do not want to follow the rules set down by BSA then join another group that allows you to make them up as you go or only follow the ones you want to. I will never back down from my belief that all Eagle Scouts Must be Swimmers.
Legal waivers exempted of course. Ther are rules that I do not agree with But I still follow them as that is what I signed on for when I join BSA 50 years ago.
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Postby mhjacobson » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:49 pm

Congratulations to all of the amateur psychologists who either do not understand a true phoebia and believe that it can be taught away. There is a difference between post traumatic stress disorder and a true phoebia and it is not within the charge or challenge of the BSA to make the decision that a person with a psychological fear to heights, or water, or anything should be either withheld from advancement or forced to face the fear (can one say psychological abuse, which is a violation of our youth protection policies?).

The advancement program calls for modification of advancement requirements for the ranks through first class through the implementation of an individual scout advancement plan (not a waiver) which is supported by a diagnosis by a licensed professional who is qualified to make the diagnosis. The documentation, and the IEP (or other supporting information) and the Individual Scout Advancement Plan is provided to the COUNCIL advancement committee who makes the call. it is not the local unit, but this committee that makes the final determination.

In the case of merit badges (including swimming and lifesaving) the same procedure is followed, with the major difference being that the requirements for a merit badge may not be waived, but the the badges required for Eagle may be substituted for upon receiving approval by the committee.

All of this is nicely explained in the most recent Souting for Youth with Disabilities Manual (#34059).
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:29 am

The problem here mh is someone taking it upon themselves to eliminate a requirement like swimming. If a youth is truly handicapped and wants an alternate then the proper procedures must be followed.
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Postby 9009scoutmaster » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:07 pm

At summer camp in 2006 I had one youth who was only with us for the summer. I had sign him up for swimming MB just like all my first year campers. I tell them if they complete the MB great. All I am looking for is for them to pass their 1st & 2nd Class swimming requirements.
This 11 year old was deathly afraid of the water. No problem, I changed him to another MB. This summer, his father informed me that he had over come his fear of the water, and has earned the swimming BM. As scout leaders we have to work with youth to help them over come their fears if we can. With young scouts, sometimes all it takes is a little time. At summer camp every youth in the unit knew he was afraid of the water when we went to take our swim test. Some youth are not ready to pass their swimming requirements unit till they are 13 or 14.
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Postby Hubert » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:42 pm

wagionvigil wrote:excellent question I am interested in knowing that also and if so WHo gave them the waiver? If it was at the local level it is illegal!
These Scouts do take baths or showers do they not? Water is water!


Well, I too use to have a fear of water. Not so much, "water" but deep water over my head. I was not (still am to an extent) confident in my swimming abilities. I sat on Second Class for 2 years I believe it is because I had a hard time with the requirement to jump into water with clothes and float. I have a hard time breathing when I do activities. I Had a fear of getting in the deep water, running out of breath, and sinking.

I did not have a fear of water, but deep water. After camp, I was able to overcome this and get in the water. However, before camp, that requirement was taken away from First Class and I was able to advance.
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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby tmowens44 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:23 pm

In our troop we have made Cooking and American Heritage Troop required electives. To give Public Speaking Experience to all the Scouts, we assign rotating different roles to them during Courts of Honor (generally 2 Eagle Courts and 2 Advancement/ Merit Badge Courts a year).
During the year we have both an Orienteering and a Wilderness Survival weekend Camp Out with Patrol competitions. Scouts, who wish, can earn a Partial MB on these outings and are able to complete the requirements at our Summer Camp Out. These Weekends are very popular.
Once a Year we have a Hunting Camp Out where the Senior Scout Leadership gets to hunt deer as a reward for their Troop service and all Scouts with a Hunting License can hunt Turkey from blinds with adult supervision. Scout team rifle/shotgun target competitions are held with prizes. Everyone must attend Safety meetings even though almost all have Rifle, Shotgun and Archery Merit Badges. This is our second most popular trip, after our Alpine Skiing Winter Camp Out. Every year we also offer Backpacking and Canoeing Weekends.
By the time our Troop's Scout is an Eagle, he is exposed to an extensive outdoor/survival experience.
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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby WVBeaver05 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:16 pm

uhhh....

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Troop required electives -- at least I hope I don't know.

Also, it's late and I don't have my G2SS handy, but is hunting allowed? I am certain that Scouts may only use single shot .22's.

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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby FieldSports » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:20 am

tmowens44 wrote:In our troop we have made Cooking and American Heritage Troop required electives. To give Public Speaking Experience to all the Scouts, we (Hope you mean the SPL)assign rotating different roles to them during Courts of Honor (generally 2 Eagle Courts and 2 Advancement/ Merit Badge Courts a year). :? "Required" elective? No such thing and also against the rules to require it.

During the year we have both an Orienteering and a Wilderness Survival weekend Camp Out with Patrol competitions. Scouts, who wish, can earn a Partial MB on these outings and are able to complete the requirements at our Summer Camp Out. These Weekends are very popular. :) Great idea! Scouts in the wilderness having fun!

Once a Year we have a Hunting Camp Out where the Senior Scout Leadership gets to hunt deer as a reward for their Troop service and all Scouts with a Hunting License can hunt Turkey from blinds with adult supervision(Camo?). Scout team rifle/shotgun target competitions are held with prizes. Everyone must attend Safety meetings even though almost all have Rifle, Shotgun and Archery Merit Badges. :x This is so not cool. #1 No hunting allowed. #2 Requires high caliber rifle - again very against the rules. #3 Bet there is no NRA instructor either. #4 There is no way you are getting a tour permit for this #5 There has never been a death with shooting in BSA :D . Please, please don't be the first. Start following the rules.

How about a non-scouting dad/son weekend?


This is our second most popular trip, after our Alpine Skiing Winter Camp Out. Every year we also offer Backpacking and Canoeing Weekends. Another great adventure! But have to ask do you have a trained leader for this? :?:

By the time our Troop's Scout is an Eagle, he is exposed to an extensive outdoor/survival experience.
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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby wagionvigil » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:05 am

tmowens44
AS you have been told you cannot "require" any merit badges or any other requirements not listed in the book. Second please edit your profile to list your council in the location slot.ANd last but not lest welcome to the forum.
Oh and by the way I am not touching the hunting trip(as a troop activity) as it is so not allowed that you and all the troop leadership are in danger of being thrown out of scouting.
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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby Quailman » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:11 am

You're exactly three months late.

What, this isn't an April fools? You're serious about required electives and troop hunting trips? My first thought was that a bot had gotten through the registration filter and was trolling.
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Re:

Postby pipestone1991 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:09 am

wagionvigil wrote:The problem here mh is someone taking it upon themselves to eliminate a requirement like swimming. If a youth is truly handicapped and wants an alternate then the proper procedures must be followed.


Some have true phobias and like Wagion says, the situation needs to go through the right channels. However, in most cases scouts just never learned to swim and need to learn that skillthrough alot of practice. At my council's summer camp, they have a class to help with those who cannot swim.
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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby OldGreyBear » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:46 am

About this Hunting thing, you aren't a Venturing Crew as well, are you? In the Guide to Safe Scouting it says:

Hunting is not an authorized Cub Scout or Boy Scout activity, although hunting safety is part of the program curriculum.
(The purpose of this policy is to restrict chartered packs, troops, and teams from conducting hunting trips. However, this policy does not restrict Venturing crews from conducting hunting trips or special adult hunting expeditions provided that adequate safety procedures are followed and that all participants have obtained necessary permits and/or licenses from either state or federal agencies. While hunter safety education might not be required prior to obtaining a hunting license, successful completion of the respective state voluntary program is required before participating in the activity.)

I understand that taking the boys hunting is great, but how do you sidestep the Guide to SAfe Scouting?
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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby kwildman » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:29 pm

Another reason for old school SMs to dislike Venturing. :lol:
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Re: Possible Eagle Required MB

Postby smtroop168 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:33 pm

Found this on the web today. I had heard about piloting Hunting MB


Boy Scouts of America



WEST MICHIGAN BOY SCOUTS TO PILOT HUNTING BADGE OF MERIT

Gerald R. Ford Council of the Boy Scouts of America has developed a Hunting Badge of Merit, which could lead to a national Boy Scout Hunting Merit Badge.


GRAND RAPIDS, Mich., January 2004 - The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) have long been known for developing citizenship, character and community service in our country's youth and in 2004 the Gerald R. Ford Council of the BSA will take that one step further. The local council has built upon many existing activities and awards in order to create a pilot program for a Hunting Badge of Merit, which has the potential to become a national Boy Scout Hunting Merit Badge.


Two years in the making, volunteers and the Scout executive from the Gerald R. Ford Council have developed a stringent and challenging program that teaches Scouts about hunting through the study of wildlife, wildlife conservation, hunting safety and hunting history. The Badge of Merit incorporates everything to create a responsible and ethical hunter short of pulling the trigger or releasing an arrow.


"Our hope is that this pilot program will one day become a national Boy Scout Merit Badge," said Michael D. Sulgrove, Scout executive of the Gerald R. Ford Council, BSA. "We'd like to see 200 to 400 Scouts earn this badge over the next two years."


The results of the pilot program will be presented to the BSA National advancement committee for review and consideration. Should the National organization approve the program developed in Grand Rapids, millions of Scouts across the nation could gain the opportunity to learn about the role of ethical hunting and conservation by earning a Hunting Merit Badge.


"We've created this program to build upon the moral values that Scouting teaches youth," said Alan Taylor, member of the board of directors for the Gerald R. Ford Council, BSA, and a key architect of the Hunting Badge of Merit. "We teach these boys about the role of hunting in wildlife management and conservation all without firing a shot. Should these boys choose to go on and become active hunters they will have the knowledge, discipline and ethics ingrained in them to be responsible hunters while respecting the animals and the ecological system."


Boy Scouts of America
Michael Sulgrove
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Grand Rapids, MI 49544-9775
(616) 785-2662 - (888) 272-4732
Fax (616) 785-0835
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